Umnumzana's point seems to be that it shouldn't have mattered, that most Christians probably believe the basic idea that Jesus is coming back and ending the game, and more or less none of them is sacrificing their children to "speed the process." But In that idea I think Um misunderstands a pretty fundamental point: leftists don't know that the general idea of the end of the world is more or less ubiquitous in Christianity, and they assume anyone that thinks the "Apocolypse" is true must be an unusual "Fundamentalist" person who is trying to "speed up the process" through weird rituals and supersticious voodoo of some kind. I've noticed that weird idea, all the way back to the movie Ghostbusters :) I still dont know where that idea comes from, but you know ... Jews have secret meetings and run the world, Christians invade Iraq to bring about something called an "Apocolypse"--whatever they need to make up to take the place of actual information I guess.

But you are right Randy; if I understand you. If he had said "Yes" they would be eating him alive well beyond his term. Might as well be a Supreme Court nominee that says "No" when asked if he or she believes that abortion is "established law;" it's just not done.

I have a lot of friends in various Christian sects, and many of them have been wondering aloud the same thing. I'm not sure what it would get you if this was somehow a piece of liberal stupidity, but I suspect it came more from the woman's religiousness than political leanings. And as we all know, only conservatives can be religious/pious/righteous, so for once your're admitting soemthing your own side did that you don't like.

However, I don't see the big deal here. If the woman was a supporter--and how often does Bush allow questions from anybody who isn't--maybe she was just asking for a little guidance or thought from a man she respects and trusts. Or, like many Christians I know, she was trying to plant the idea in others' minds, thus promoting Christianity itself. Nothing all that surprising in either of those motives.

For my part, I don't know Max. But everything about the question, the wording and choice of words, the subject matter--It just doesn't sound like a Christian evangelizing. The person is reading American Theocracy, for instance. And the question contains: "... discusses what has been called radical Christianity and its growing involvement into government and politics" which sounds about as devout as ... Michael Moore. But in the end I guess I don't actually know.

From just my own observation, what she said sounded a lot like a discussion I recently had with a very devout Christian. She believes the Apocalypse is coming soon, and wants me to as well, bacuse then I have to accept her whole sect. And she's very well-read on opposing theories; any good debater must be. I just didn't see the evil, left-wing conspiracy behind this one woman's words, tone or meaning here, really. She was reletively coherent and non-confrontational, seems like. It definitely looked a long way from tryng to tie Bush in league with the Devil. I think there's other possible explanations, is all.

Hmm,I saw the video earlier today and think that Bush does not think this war is signs of the 'impending' apocalypse.At bottom I don't think he really is a Christian.*Dodges cast stones*Last time I checked Jesus told everyone to refuse the courts and the laws of the lands to find the kingdom of god.Hardly the type of rhetoric you will ever hear coming out of Washington.The surest wayyou can tell a religion has conquered its enemies is when those who were former enemies of the movement are now its strongest proponents.e.g. the rich and powerful.

Clearly a conspiracy theorist, or at least tickling the funny bone of such people... or a liberal trying to play pin the tail on the "radical" evangelical

Not sure what you mean Randy.I dont try and pin the tail on any double headed snake.My beliefs granted do tend to float more left than your comfortable with but thy arise from a humanist perspective.I have no loyalty to any particular bend.Brand it how you want but I learned more from Schopenhaeur,Nietzsche and Plato than any party could offer.My tendency is for the human to thrive not some brand of politics.

I wasn't talking about you Rob, I meant the questioner in the audience... by the way, compared to our new friend Max you're like Rush Limbaugh over here.

This is how I understand our eddling in Israel(please correct me if I stray to far off topic)From what I can gather it sounds like Christian fundamentalists do not feel a person can enter the kingdom of heaven without Christ in their heart.Hence become a Christian.So it begs and begs the question why are American evangelists so concerned about an orthodox Jewish country?You can say that it is from the rabid antisemitism in the region that provokes such hostile retaliation but I think its not such an altruistic answer.The reason I feel is that the second coming of Christ is predetermined in the gospels to arrive in Israel.Threfore we must make sure there is an Israel left for him to arrive in.If Palestine annexes it where is he supposed to materialize?.Am I wrong?Did I miss something?LOL at the Rush Limbaugh comment Randy.You truly made my day :)

Rob:
The reason I feel is that the second coming of Christ is predetermined in the gospels to arrive in Israel.Threfore we must make sure there is an Israel left for him to arrive in.If Palestine annexes it where is he supposed to materialize?.Am I wrong?Did I miss something?

This is true. I don't think it's what is entirely behind American policy though. I mean Israel, you'd have to admit is a civilized western country in the heart of the most violent Muslim region of the planet? Anyway, The "claim" on the land goes back to the Old Testament, and much of the prophecy about the land has come true... Whether you believe it is interpretation or forced.... the whole temples being destroyed and rebuilt, Jews returning, etc. etc. etc.

Anyway, I'm saying these are certainly beliefs. I don't however think that, as the question seems to imply, that Bush is guiding his foreign policy on bringing about the coming apocalypse... But I think protecting Israel is a command from God and we will continue to do it. It's not like it's something new from this President or anything. And again, they are westernized Democracy vs. all of their neighbors.... Obviously we'll support them anyway. But I would say we've been pretty reserved. We haven't gone in and eliminated the Palestinians which we obviously could...

I don't even know what I'm rambling about now.. but I would say you're right about why Israel needs to exist.

Okay.I have no sarcasm here just a desire to understand okay.Why would the most holy of holies in Christianity show up in a Jewish land?I repeat there is no sarcasm but its hard to fathom.And yes I know its sooo far off topic but one interesting question I never quite knew how to google.

And rereading your comment I disagree Palestine has a definite right to exist.

Peace out Randy,Got to go to work.Its about one in the morning but we got a MEDEVAC flight coming in and I'M on call.*Grumble*No biggie though only 3 people and it doesnt sound like any serious injuries.Hope to talk to you later on in the day.

I think you must have misunderstood something.. I don't believe I said that Palestine does or doesn't have a right to exist... not sure what you mean..

As for why Jesus would return in Israel... Because it's the "Holy Land", it's God's land where he led the Jews to... Obviously if the (religiously) Jewish, didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah (they are still waiting for him), but he still came to that place and it still remains "God's" land. Not sure I can really explain this in clear terms. But it's sort of the "launch" pad for both Christianity and Judaism. It's not like Jesus is return to a "Jewish" place, he's returning to God's place. It's "Israel" rather than a (religiously) "Jewish" place, that he's returning to... does that make any sense? Again, not easiest thing to put in to words.

I don't support Israel because I feel that it is my job to keep it on the map for Jesus. I am a bit surprised by the idea, myself. Interesting thought though. I consider prophesy as descriptive, not proscriptive.

I'm also Christian with an evangelical streak, and I also strongly support Israel for a number or reasons, most stemming from the reality that Israel is a western democracy in a world of bronze-age tribalism, and more than a few of its neighbors feel it should be annilated in Allah's name. Those reasons would be enough.

I think you make a mistake dismissing altruism Rob. Even my Christianish reasons are altruistic, when I consider them. I would honor Israel on David's behalf, someone I respect and admire, or Abraham's, or Jesus' behalf, because he loved Israel and came from there. Also, don't forget Rob that most of my Christian Bible was written by Jews about Jews. I feel a genuine affection for Jews, plain and simple. Even if Jewish culture does annoy me :)

But if you want a really interesting perspective on this whole affair, I learned a few things from the Jewish side of the coin reading about a different topic from an Orthodox Rabbi: America's Real War. As he makes his case, he walks around the odd affinity of practicing Christians and Jews, and how they have much ideologically in common.

I don't want to try Randy's patience; I like his blog and I want to play nice, so may I suggest we leave this somewhere near here and jump back on topic? For my part, I think I'll leave it here. I'm going to go surf up the Christian about to be executed by the Islamic government in Afghanistan because he's Christian.

It's not like Jesus is return to a "Jewish" place, he's returning to God's place. It's "Israel" rather than a (religiously) "Jewish" place, that he's returning to... does that make any sense?

About perfect. Posting around each other here :)

Thanks for adding on Axe.. I guess I kind of assumed (being a Christian) that much of what you said was common knowledge to everyone, but I suppose it's not... but you clarified most of it (i.e. Bible by Jews and about Jews), so thanks...